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Why did they do it?
Monday, August 4th, 1924
10:30 o'clock A.M.
Court convened at 10:30 o'clock A.M.
Monday, August 4th, 1924, pursuant to adjournment heretofore taken.
Present: Same as before.
THE COURT: I must apologize for being late this morning, gentlemen, but I could not help it. I had an engagement downstairs to impanel a grand jury and I went down there.
MR. DARROW: Shall we proceed, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DARROW: Dr. Healy.
DR. WILLIAM HEALY,
a witness called on behalf of the defendants, having been first duly sworn, testified as follows:
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. DARROW,
MR. CROWE: Your Honor, I assume the same questions will asked as to his qualifications and I merely
want to make a formal objection without argument.
MR. DARROW: Q Give us your name.
A William Healy.
Q Where do you live?
A Boston.
Q What is your profession?
A I am a physician and psyochologist.
Q How long have you been a physician and psychologist?
MR. CROWE: Now, if your Honor please, I desire to offer the same objection, based upon the same reasons we advanced to your honor when Dr. White was on the stand.
THE COURT: Same ruling.
MR. DARROW: Q How long have you been in that profession?
A Since 1900, most of that time.
Q Where did you graduate?
A I graduated first from Harvard University and then from Rush Medical College.
Q Rush Medical College in Chicago?
A Yes sir.
Q When did you graduate there?
A 1900.
Q Where did you first locate?
A First I had charge of the women's department of the Wisconsin State Hospital for mental diseases.
Q. How long were you there?
A One year. I was then five years in general practice in Chicago. Then I went abroad and studied for a year in Vienna, Berlin and London. Then I came back and settled in Chicago, and entered into the practice of neurology and psychiatry.
Q How long did you practice in Chicago?
A I became head of the Psychopathic Institute of
the Juvenile Court in 1909, and I was in the practice of neurology privately for about two years.
Q How long were you head of the Juvenile Court in psychiatry in Chicago?
A From 1909 to 1917. Then I became director of the Judge Baker Foundation in Boston, which is a foundation for the study of conduct problems, behavior problems, for the courts, particularly the Juvenile Court of Boston, and for social agencies
.Q Are you such director now?
A Yes sir.
Q What other professional activities have you?
A I am a lecturer at Harvard University and Boston University. This summer I am on the staff of Columbia.
Q How long have you been at Harvard?
A About the last two years.
Q In what line?
A In the Department of Social Ethics.
Q Have you any other position or work in connection with the courts of Boston?
A No, except cases from the juvenile court of Boston, and from some of the outlying courts, which come to our foundation for study.
Q And that has been ever since you have been with this foundation?
A That is what it was established for.
Q About how many such cases have you had for observation in Boston?
A Probably thirty-
Q What societies if any are you connected with?
A Quite a number of scientific Societies. The American Neurological Association,
the American Psychiatric Association, the American Psychological Association, the
American Institute of Criminal Law and Crminology, the American Association of Ortho-
Q Are you connected with any hospitals or institutions?
A Chairman of the Trustees, Boston Psychopathic Hospital.
Q What is their work?
A The studying of mental diseases.
Q How long have you been chairman?
A About four years.
Q Have you written any books on these subjects?
A I have written a large textbook, "The Individual Delinquent" and a book entitled "Pathological Lying, Accusation and Swindling"; a book entitled, "Mental Conflicts and Misconduct"; a book entitled "Honesty"; a small book on "Case Studies of Mentally and Morally Abnormal Types; and last year we got out a series of "Case Studies of Conduct Disorders", mostly.
Q Where were tho books published?
A They are published mostly in this country. They have some English editions too, some foreign editions.
Q During all of this time in your professional career what have you made your chief study? A The study of conduct disorders.
Q Had any special references to adolescents? A Yes, particular among adolescents. I have seen very little of adults, purposely. Neary all of them children and adolescents. Q What age do you count as adolescents?
A Adolescents, the definition of adolescents is from the time of puberty until twenty-
Q How is that as to boys, as to being a critical time with them? A I beg your pardon?
Q How in that age as being a critical time with boys?
A It is an exceedingly critical time on account of the many new impulses that come to the individual through his physical life and mental life.
Q Have you testified much in oourt?
A I have actually testified from either side very seldom indeed. I give reports directly to the Judge. Q In Boston? A Yes, and did here too.
Q And you did here?
A Sat with the Judge here for three years, Judge Pinckney and later Judge Arnold. Q You came here from Boston in this matter? A Yes. Q For what purpose? A To study these two boys, the cases of these two boys, Leopold and Loeb.
Q What have you done toward studying them?
A Well, I have studied the boys themselves and I have gone over a great deal of other material, seen a good deal of material in the way of letters and photographs, and I have seen acquaintances and relatives, studied the reports, particularly upon the physical side, of Doctors Bowman and Hulbert; gone into matters connected with the developmental history and family history, and have given a considerable range of psychological tests to each of the two boys; endeavored to get data on their emotional life, and on the alterations,
if any, of their personality.
Q How much time did you spend with them, about how much?
A You mean in actual days? Q Well, figure it any way you want to.
A I began on July 4th and I have seen them a considerable
number of times since. The last time I saw them was on July 27th, that is, in the jail. I have seen them the equivalent, certainly of a number of whole days.
Q And suitable facilities were provided for the study in the jail, were they not?
A They were very satisfactory indeed, very. We had a nice, quiet room there. I was generally alone. Two or three times my colleagues were with me for a little while. Mr Bachrach was present on all but one day, gave very good help in the matter. Very satisfactory conditions.
Q That is Mr. Walter Bachrach?
A Mr. Waltar Bachrach, yes.
Q You may state in your own way about what examination you made to ascertain their mental condition.
A What examination that I made?
A The examinations from which I have drawn any conclusions are concerned with the generial physical observations of the boys, especially with regard to any nervous disturbance.
As I said before, the giving of special mental tests of various sorts; observation of their personality; observation of their emotional life; studies of their correspondence and the correspondence of others to them; interviews with a number of other people concerning their experiences, their home life, and so on, and concerning the peculiarities of their associations. I am afraid that is a good deal of repetition.
Q In the course of those studies you learned the facts of this homicide, in a general way at least, did you not?
A I suppose I had all the facts from what I had seen in the newspapers and heard
from Mr. Bachhrach and Mr. Hulbert in Chicago -
Q You learned, then, before you saw the boys or at different times? You did learn them, anyway?
A Yes.
Q And you took that into consideration?
A Yes, and anything that came out at the interviews seemed to be entirely corroborative.
Q Did you have a certain letter that was written by Nathan Leopolds Jr. to Richard Loeb in reference to some misunderstanding between them and their future conduct that was introdued by the State?
A I read that in the newspapers in Boston. I think I read a copy of it -
Q Did you have any other?
A I have had a tremendous grist of letters, yes.
Q Did you have any that especially throw light on this subject?
A There are some that I think throw a great deal of light.
Q Do you have any here now that have not been introduced in evidence?
A Yes, I have one.
Q This is a letter that you have considered and which you consider throws light on the mental condition? A Yes, throws light.
Q Have you it at hand?
A Wouldn't you rather that we brought that in at its proper place in the study of the case?
Q Yes, I just did not want to overlook it, is all.
A Yes.
Q Perhaps the beet way Dr. Healy would be for you to state in your own way what means you took and what findings you made as to each of them. You can begin with either one of then, whichever is most convenient for you.
MR. CROWE: If your Honor please, before the doctor starts, I do not like to be interrupting him while he is talking but I would like to say that up to date all the statements have been generalities. We have a right to know exactly what the doctor did; what the conversations were; what the acts were, and everything, so that we may know whether he in drawing a correct conclusion from those facts. So I would like to have the doctor be specific in his statements.
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. DARROW: That is what we expect him to be, your Honor.
THE COURT: Yes, we expect his to go right on in
logical form and detail everything he did and said so you can be fully advised upon what he bases his conclusion and upon which you may then want to cross examine, and you may cross examine at such length as you desire.
MR. DARROW: He may refer to his notes made at the time I suppose?
THE COURT: Yes, there is no objection to his referring to his notes.
MR. CROWE: None whatever,
THE COURT: You may proceed, doctor; start in at the beginning of the examination of these boys and tell us what you did, what conclusions you arrived at and how you came to arrive at those conclusions.
THE WITNESS: First, let us start with the association between the two boys as a matter of study.
MR. CROWE: Just a moment; by the two boys you mean the two defendants?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I mean Leopold and Loeb.
There is such a mass of material that if my memory fails me on just exactly where I got all my information from, you must pardon me, but I shall endeavor to be very explicit.
As far as I can find out from the account given by the boys themselves and from their relatives, their association began at fifteen years of age. They just barley knew each other earlier, but that is the time they first came together. It is very clear from the study of the boys separately that each came with peculiarities in their mental life which I shall dwell on later; each arrived at these peculiarities by different routes; each supplemented the other's already constituted abnormal needs in a most unique way.
And, in regard to the association I think that I ought to say perhaps at this point that from the accounts that I have received of it, that the crime in its commission and in its background has features that are quite beyond anything in my experience or knowledge of the literature. There seems to have been so little normal motivation, the matter was so long planned, so unfeelingly carried out, that it represents nothing that I have ever seen or heard of before. As judged by their conversation and by their correspondence, their compacts, their quarrels, their deeds, all tend to show a most strange and pathological relationship.
According to the stories of each the idea of their coming together for crime purposes began in a very definite way with their planning of extensive cheating at bridge, which, however, they were not very successful at and they did not continue so they say.
MR. CROWE: Now, just a minute. You are still going into nothing but generalities and opinions. Cheating at bridge. Tell us what they told you about it so that we may krow whether it is as strage as you think it is.
MR. DARROW: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: I have just stated that they told as their crime began with their cheatings at bridge and their planning to do so. Isn't that the specific sort of statement that you want, Mr. Crowe?
MR. CROWE: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Although Loeb had been in delinquencies earlier, according to his very
extensive account of these delinquencies, this was the first time -
MR. CROWE: Now wait a minute. I insist that we
find out what thse delinquencies are.
THE COURT: He is going right on to tell you what they are.
THE WITNESS: I will be very glad to tell you, sir.
THE COURT: Go right on and tell us.
THE WITNESS: That this was the first time, evidently, with anyoue else he carried
out a serious delinquency and it was an evently action for him as well as for Leopold.
Then each of them gave me the account; -
MR. CROWE: Just a moment. What are the delinquencies that they told you?
THE WITNESS: Let me tell it in order. I will come to all that later.
MR. CROWE: The thing that I am objecting to is that this is apparently a speech. I think he ought to testify like the ordinary witness does, your Honor. I can cross examine him on some of the things in his speech, but that is unsatisfactory.
THE COURT: The doctor has prepared himself, I should judge, from the way he is starting out, for this testimony, and he has it in his mind in a certain order, and he is now leading up. Tell us what they said to you, doctor, what Loeb said and what Leopold said.
Instead of saying, "The boys said," state what each one said. Tell us as near as you can what Loeb said and what Leopold said about the crime and then you can give your conclusion later.
THE WITNESS: I will get to that. Both Leopold and Loeb told me that starting with this action and continuing, drinking was also considerable of a bond between them. The criminalistic activities of Loeb previously, according to his own account, began with his stealing in the neighborhood. There was a matter of his getting in at a window, and taking a vase when he was about nine years of age. Prior to that time there was a digging up of some money from the yard next door, that he knew a little boy had hidden.
MR. DARROW: Q This is Loeb you are referring to now?
A Yes. There was quite a little stealing from shops about the city here, pencils, dental floos, all sorts of small articles that he took, so he says, for the purpose of getting the thrill of taking them. For the moment I don't remember anything else that occurred until the time when they joined activities. There may have been something else that will come out later. In
the matter of the association, I have the boys story told separately about an incrediably absurb childish compact that bound them, which bears out in Leopold's case particularly the thread and idea of his fantasy life. For Loeb, he says, the association gave him the opportunity of getting someone to carry out his criminalistic imaginings and conscious ideas. In the case of Leopold, the direct cause of his entering into criminalistic acts was this particularly childish compact.
MR. CROWE: You are talking about a compact that you characterize as childish. Kindly tell us what that compact was.
A I am perfectly willing to tell it in chambers but it is not a matter that I think sbould be told here.
MR. CROWE. I insist that we know what that compact is, so that we can form some opinion about It.
MR. DARROW: I suggest it be in Chambers.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. CROWE: Tell it in oourt. The trial must be public, your Honor. I am not insisting that he talk loud enough for everybody to hear, but it ought to be told in the same way that we put the other evidence in.
THE COURT: It would be public, if there was only one outsider in here. If it Is something
that is unfit for publication -
MR. CROWE: There is no desire on my part to bring out something unfit for publication
-
MR. BACHRACH: It ought not to be given to the newspapers by this reporter, your Honor.
THE COURT: Oh no. This is not for the papers at all. This will not be given to the newspapers, Mr. Reporter.
The witness then made the following statement to court, counsel and court reporters:
THE WITNESS: This compact, as was told to me separately by each of the boys on different occasions, and verified over and over, consisted in an agreement between them that Leopold, who has very definite homosexual tendencies, which have been a part of his makeup
for many years, was to have the privilege of -
MR. CROWE: Absolutely, because this is important.
THE WITNESS: (Continuing) -
MR. BACHRACH: So that it need not be repeated, make it clear what the compact was.
MR. DARROW: I do not suppose this should be taken in the presence of newspapermen, your Honor.
THE COURT: Gentlemen, will you go and sit down, you newspaperman. Take your seats. This should not be published. d.
MR. CROWE: Q What other acts, if any, did they tell you about? You say that there are other acts that they did rarely or seldom?
A Oh, they were just experimenting once or twice with each other.
Q Tell what it was.
A They experimented with mouth perversions, but they did not keep it up at all. They did not got anything out of it.
Q And Leopold was -
A Leopold has had many years -
THE COURT: Yes
THE WITNESS: Leopold has had for many years a great deal of phantasy life surrounding sex activity. That is part of the whole story and has been for many years. He has phantasies of being with a man, and usually with Loeb himself, even when he has connection with girls and the whole thing is an absurd situation because there is nothing but just putting his penis between this fellow's legs and getting that sort of a thrill. He says he gets a thrill out of anticipating it. Loeb would pretend to be drunk, then this follow would undress him and he would almost rape him and would be furiously passionate at the time, whereas with women he does not get that same thrill and passion.
MR. CROWE: That is what he tells you?
A Surely.
MR. DARROW: That is all I believe of that.
THE WITNESS: That is what he tells me. And of the other part, of course, Loeb tells me himself. That is exactly what they did, and how he feigns sometimes to be drunk, in order that be should have his aid in carrying out his criminalistic ideas. That is what Leopold gets out of it, and that is what Loeb gets out of it.
MR. BACHRACH: Q When in connection with the compact in point of time did they start, with reference to the compact?
A Their criminalistic ideas began on the same day, when they began their cheating at bridge. It was on the day when they first made it out. It was the first time in a berth, and it was when Leopold had this first experience with his penis between Loeb's legs, and then he found it gave him more pleasure than anything else he had ever done. To go on further with this, even in jail here, a look at Loeb's body or his touch upon his shoulder thrills him so, he says, immeasurably. Is that enough?
MR. CROWE: I think that is all.
THE COURT: The press has all of this. They have a copy of it and they know what it contains. There is no necessity of taking it down.
MR. DARROW: Q This letter that was written and introduced in evidence -
MR. CROWE: I didn't hear that.
MR. DARROW: Q This letter that was written and has been introducd in evidence from Leopold to Loeb you consider has more or lose bearing upon this matter you have just been relating?
A You mean the one that has already been published?
Q The one that has been published.
A Yes, I do. Only not specifically, of course, not in detail.
Q No, but bearing on it.
A Not specifically, but it gives a very unfair statement of the situation, and in regard to the association I would say that Dick Loeb insisted to me on a number of occasions that he has never found anything in himself that would lead to his deterrence; he would do it over again; nothing in him to deter.
The Court here held a short conference with the attorneys, out of the hearing of the reporters.
THE COURT: All right, doctor, go ahead.
THE WITNESS: And -
enough. Now, if I may, I will go to a discussion of my findings as to Leopold himself.
One sees Leopold exhibiting pretty definite signs of nervous instability, frequently shows greatly exaggerated use of the muscles of the face, exhibiting many nervous gestures, ready flushings and pallor. I also see signs in him of great nervous energy, and I may say at this point that I should agree with the Bowman and Hulbert report which I presume will be gone into later, that their results show evidences of some pathology of the glands, the internal secretion, probably of the sympathetic nervous systen.
Concerning Leopold's mentality I find conclusive evidences by a giving of a considerable number of mental tests that he possesses very high intelligence.
MR. CROWE: Q Now, will you give us those tests, doctor.
A Would you like them in detail?
Q Absolutely?
A I gave the general age level intelligence test, the so-
In the course of this test I went into the matter of his auditory memory span, and found he had nothing very phenomenal in this way.
I gave him a so-
MR. CROWE: Doctor, I asked, would you kindly give what the tests were.
THE WITNESS: You don't want the results on them?
MR. CROWE: I want the tests first.
THE WITNESS: You want the tests first?
MR. CROWE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: I gave the Stanford-
MR. CROWE: I know, but what are they?
THE WITNESS: What I am telling you.
MR. CROWE: All that is Greek to me.
THE WITNESS: I just told you this other test was a test for comprehension, by reading.
MR. CROWE: Describe the test.
THE WITNESS: That is what it is.
MR. CROWE: No, you say, "I gave him a number of tests," I don't know what they were. I don't know whether he had to stand on his head or not.
THE WITNESS: He had to read. I told him what to read and I gave him passages to read.
MR. CROWE: Tell us what you gave him to read, and tell us what happened after he read them.
THE WITNESS: I don't know of any better way than the way I am doing.
MR. DARROW: I suppose the tests are very well known tests?
THE WITNESS: Very well-
MR. DARROW: That is all.
MR. CROWE: I don't know what the the Monroe Test is. I never heard of it.
THE COURT: Tell us what the Monroe test is. Give us all the facts.
THE WITNESS: The Monroe test is a test that emanated from the Kansas State Teachers College, and one that is used, as I say, for the study of individual ability to comprehend written language.
MR. BACHRACH: Suppose you be more explicit, doctor, and tell us so that we can all know what it know what it means. I am in the same boat that Mr. Crowe is on that.
THE WITNESS: One reads certain passages or paragraphs and answers them with pencil.
MR. CROWE: Q What did he read? And what answer did he make? That is what I want.
A That is what I am attempting to tell. He read then. He gave a score on them.
Q But tell us what he read and what his score was?
A Would you like me to read all of these tests?
Q Certainly.
A It to an awfully long job.
MR. DARROW: Can't you do it on the cross examination?
MR. CROWE: No, no. We are entitled to it on direct examination.
MR. DARROW: I think you are not.
THE COURT: Let the doctor go on and tell, and then you can cross examine him at length when you come to the cross. If you will explain, doctor, when you apply such a system or test, that it means reading a paragraph from Homer or whatever it is, have a little paragraph read from it, and then give his answer thereto; that would be sufficient, and later if they want to go into it further they can do it.
THE WITNESS: It is an awfully long job to read these tests.
THE COURT: I know, but we don't care how long it takes, doctor, if it takes three weeks, if it is going to be of any enlightenment to us in this case. Time cuts no figure.
THE WITNESS: The whole test shows his tremendously high ability on the whole thing right through. I can summarise it right now at the start, and you won't know know any more at the end. I will be very glad to go into it, but that is all it shows.
MR. CROWE: I appreciate you are very anxious to give your conclusions, but I want to know what they are based on.
MR. DARROW: I object to that statement. The doctor is perfectly candid with you.
THE WITNESS: I am perfectly willing to read these off.
THE COURT: All right, doctor, go ahead and read these off.
THE WITNESS: In the Monroe Silent Reading Test, No.1 is: "The Chinese believe that whatever their ancestry did, they must do. Since their fathers had no railways, telegraphs or telephones, they must have none. They dislike new things. Will you expect to find the civilization of China modern or ancient?"
"Ancient" he answered.
MR. CROWE: He answered "Ancient".
A The answer is "ancient" which is correct.
No. 2 is: "The tighter a wire is stretched the higher the tone produced when the
wire is struck. Two wires are stretched, ones with a fourteen-
He answers: "The former."
No.3 is: "The battle of Holenlinden occurred December 3, 1800, during one of Napoleon's campaigns. The battle was fought between the French under Moreau on the one side and the Austrians under Archduke John on the other side. In this battle,, Archduke John led the army of what couutry?
His answer to that was "Austrian".
No. 4: Ocean currents are caused by the wind. North of the equator the currents of the Indian Ocean move generally eastward during the summer and westward during the winter. Ceylond is in the Indian Ocean, north of the equator. Underline the word below which tells in what direction the wind normally blows there in December."
His answer is "West"
THE COURT: I don't think you need to take every question and answer. You have got enough now of what questions were put to him and how he came to answer them, and you say his answers were what?
THE WITNESS: his answers to the whole set of questions were not only correct, but they were done in the most rapid time of anybody I have ever known to take the test.
THE COURT: No need of going any further along that line, is there, on that particular test?
MR. CROWE: Not on that test.
THE COURT: That is all, doctor, on that.
MR. CROWE: I would like to know what those other tests are.
THE COURT: Now, if there are any other tests that were employed, give them.
THE WITNESS: the next test was a test for language ability. The exercise data of
the Kelly-
THE COURT: Now, will you give us a sample of two or three questions put along that line, doctor.
THE WITNESS: Yes, we will take some of the later ones on that.
THE COURT: Any one.
THE WITNESS: Take, for instance, Question 36. It says, "To friends is always the it takes". And then they fill in the words and so makes the sentence, "To make friends is always worth the trouble it takes."
"The lest difficult, are by no, always the most, are the tasks the most disagreeable."
MR CROWE: He answered those correctly, didn't he?
A He fills in.
MR. CROWE: Q He filled those in correctly?
A He fills in those words.
THE COURT: And did it all?
A Did it all extremely well.
THE COURT: Now, if there are any other tests, you may give them.
A I gave him the so-
Q Give us an example of that, doctor.
A An example of that is as follows:
You are given on this some twenty proverbs, and then you are given these on one side with the numbers on them, and on the other side twenty other proverbs, and you are told to tell which one of the first set of proverbs the second one is similar to. For instance, "Bend the willow while it is young." Is it like "Ill nature needs no tutor," or "An old dog will learn no tricks" or "Sail when the wind blows" and he answered all of these twenty questions perfectly.
THE COURT: We will take a short recess at this time.
Whereupon Court and Counsel here took a short recess.
Court convened pursuant to short recess heretofore taken.
Present: Same as before.
DR. WILLIAM HEALY,
resumed that stand for further direct examination by Dr. Darrow, as follows:
MR.CROWE: May I interrupt? Will you give me the name of the last test?
THE WITNESS: That is the Trabue test -
MR. CROWE: Yes.
THE WITNESS: That is this one here.
MR. CROWE: Thank you.
MR. DARROW: Q State what other tests you made.
A I think in stating the matter with regard to that Monroe Silent Reading test that
the time allowed on that test is five minutes and during that time very few individuals-
Leopold answered them all correctly in three minutes and 15 seconds.
Another test I gave him for reasoning ability, known as the syllogism test, Thurston's syllogism test and the language of that test is, "Silver is heavier than iron copper is lighter than Silver, therefore copper is heavier than iron."
Or another one: "All the members of the City Club are members of the University Club. Smith is a member of the University Club, therefore he is a member of the City Club."
There are twenty such tests in syllogistic reasoning, and he did them all -
MR. CROWE: Will you give is one more sample there, doctor?
THE WITNESS: I beg your pardon?
MR CROWE: Will you give us one more sample?
THE WITNESS: "Henry's father George has a brother William who has a son James. Therefore George is James' nephew."
These questions are to be answered, whether they are right or wrong, and he answered
them all correctly but slowly and with more difficulty with this sort of thing than
he did with the other tests given. I tested him also for his motor control, in a
certain sample tapping test in which he is asked to tap one square after another
on a sheet of paper. There he showed his control was very good indeed, making a record
of 106 squares tapped without any errors, which is above any medium norm which we
have. I gave him some tests that are included in a list of tests which are the only
ones that I know of that deal particularly with this type of mentality, known as
Roback mentality tests for superior adults. I did not take the time to give him all
of these, because they are exceedingly long, but I will tell you which ones I did
give him. Here is a so-
"The secret of genius is to suffer no fiction to exist for us, and to realize all that we know."
"Other men are lenses through which we read our own minds."
"Make the necessities of life too expensive for the poor to reach them, and they will save their money, so that in time, provided this practice is rigorously carried out, there will be no paupers."
"What has not been accomplished in the present cannot be reproduced in the past."
MR. CROWE: Q How did he answer those?
A He answered them all very well and correctly, -
seven minutes, but he made three or four mistakes.
Q How many were there altogether?
A Thirty.
Q Read three or four that he made mistakes in?
A I don't believe that I could, because since I gave them to Loeb, I erased his answers
on the first ones. He did a so-
"The following symbols constitute a sentence of nine words. The symbols" -
I gave him another test of these series, called the problem test, and the time allowed
was twenty-
"Answer the following questions concisely but convincingly. Three minutes on the average for question should be ample time." The result of
this was quite interesting to me, because he wrote at such tremendous length in the
endeavor to express hos own conception of things, and insisted on running over into
thirty-
"If raising the marks of one student will give him a higher standing in class, why not raise the marks of all in the class, so that they can have a better understanding?"
His answer was:
"This is a perfectly absurd statement. Raising the marks of one student raises his standing in the class only by comparison with the other students. His marks are high or low only relatively to those of others, and therefore, should the marks of all students be correspondingly raised, no one of all would have a higher standing than before. If an object measured in terms of another, or other objects, be increased at the same time that the other object or objects are raised, and in the same ratio, the relation between them remains unaltered."
The next one is, "If two negatives make an affirmative, why not say that two wrongs
make a right?" His answer to that is, "The force of one negative is to show that
the statement just made is not true. When another word of negation is added, it does
not deny the original statement, but that statement in its negative form namely,
the statement plus the negation thereof, to negative a negation, amounts to an opposite
of the affirmative, but this cannot be carried to the case of right and wrong. Here
while a wrong may be called a negative right, the addition of another wrong does
not act to negate or deny the first, but creates a new negative right, and cannot
be applied to the first situation. The two are totally independent and do not act
one upon the other." The interest in this, of course, is in the fact that this boy
suddenly proceeds to write in this prolix fashion, wanting more time, page after
page, in answering these questions as you have seen, with a good deal of overstatement,
and not concisely at all, as the directions call for. Now did you want the detail
on that Binet test? He passed all except one. The only failure that he made was in
the so-
and the person is asked to think of this paper as being opened up in his own mind, and it would look with these piece cut out. He had difficulty with this, although when I carried that scheme further, he developed a logical method of reasoning it out, even though he could not visualize it apparently, and did extremely well with it. That was also true in another test that I gave him, which we have always considered an extremely difficult one, known as the McAlly cube test. You are told to see in your own mind a cube that is three inches in all directions, in all measurements, and that is painted on all sides. Suppose that cube is composed of one inch cubes. How many of those cubes will be painted on three sides, two sides, one side, and no sides at all. His answer in one minute was entirely correct.
MR. CROWE: Q How many cubes are there?
A 27. The answer in one minute was entirely correct, which of course is an astonishing result, because many of us are not able to answer that in 5 or 10 minutes.
Q And some of us not at all? A A lot of us. I would find a great deal of difficulty with it myself.
Then I gave him the so-
Now Leopold got these answers in a most remarkable short time, vert frequently being
under one second, four-
Now, this test is also used to determine whether an individual has emotional reactions. I used it to no great extent in this fashion, that is, I did not introduce words as they are sometimes introduced to see whether there would be emotional reactions to those special words, with one exception. I did introduce in his case the word "chisel" and I also did in the case of Loeb, and got no special reaction, that is in the way of a lengthening of a reaction time.
But during the course of this I was very much struck by the fact that while he was
so exceedingly rapid in his general reactions, when I said the word "trouble" he
did not answer for six seconds, and then said the word "plus" and the next word that
came along was "soldier", which he responded to by the word "general" in 2-
MR. CROWE: You are now talking about Leopold?
THE WITNESS: Well, I have not quite finished -
MR. DARROW: These are all Leopold.
MR. CROWE: These are all Leopold's tests.
THE WITNESS: What?
MR. CROWE: These are Leopold's tests?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I am speaking about Leopold's tests now.
MR. CROWE: Yes.
MR. DARROW: Yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that was Leopold. Then I also gave him a test known as the picture completion test too, which is a set of ten pictures in which there are cutouts, and the person is asked to select from among sixty squares the particular picture which would best fit the meaning of the picture. They are specifically made with the idea that some of the cutouts may pretty nearly answer the meaning correctly but not do it thoroughly and well.
This test is, as we call it, a test for apperceptions or practical judgment. On this
he did very poorly indeed, much to my surprise. He made a score of 56.5 out of a
possible 100, and that is just the average for twelve years; or stated in another
way, twenty-
MR. CROWE: Can you give us one or two illustrations there if you have got them?
THE WITNESS: I could bring them at another session and show them to you much better.
MR. CROWE: Do that this afternoon.
THE WITNESS: Because it would take a long time to explain that. You can see it instantly.
MR. CROWE: All right. Do that this afternoon.
THE WITNESS: Now I think that exhuats the group of tests that I made, with one exception
I remember now. Leopold has developed logical methods of so-
Not only did he exhibit his ability to do that but he exhibited his ability to do
it on the day fater, when we had no intention of asking him, in twenty-
He gave a very interesing account of how he did that trick. He took one word, or rather he took all the rooms in his house and then he placed, as I remember it, one word in each room and associated that word with that particular room, and its contents, and then he could recall very readily the words by the relationshipo of the rooms in his house.
He also demonstated to my mind his very great attainments in the sceince of language. You heard Dr. White speak of the different dialects he has learned, but Leopold also does this sort of thing; he writes the Franch and Greek letters; or German in Sanscrit character, and things of that sort, playing with philological ideas, enjoying the whole performance most remendously he enjoys nothing the whole performance most tremendously he enjoys nothing evidently quite so much as his great activity.
His conversational powers are extremely good and he is, all through, very argumentative.
Now concerning his personality which is the next thing I would like to take up in my notes, one finds him very definitely by observation and by an account of him, extremely energetic both physically and mentally, showing as I say this great pleasure in mental activity; he does not want to stop after a half day of these arduous tests but would like to go on. It seems there is a great deal of what psychiatrists call pressure to mental activity, very little fatigue, and great desire to go on elaborating his thoughts. He is very enthusiastic and forceful about anything he initiates, throws himself into it with a very great deal of zest, making many gestures, being very talkative, having very many ideas on the subject to get out, about almost anything you speak of.
He throughout the examination showed himself to be self-
MR. CROWE: Doctor, pardon me.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. CROWE: Go back a little where you said he was self-
THE WITNESS: By his constant inconsistencies-
MR. DARROW: I think the doctor ought to tell his story and then you can cross examine.
THE WITNESS: Nearly all of this will be cleared up later when we go into the matter in detail.
MR. CROWE: The only thing is, we may forget it and if we can get it as we go along we are entitled to it.
MR. DARROW: Doesn't it go along in chronological order, doctor?
THE WITNESS: I am trying to prevent it in chronological order because there is such a mass of it.
THE COURT: All right. Go ahead, doctor.
THE WITNESS: In a very curious way he is very punctilious about keeping his appointments,
for instance. We have some evidence from a Dr. Bernheim, I think it is -
MR. DARROW: Bernheimer.
THE WITNESS: He says that Leopold became very annoyed when the doctor was not there exactly on time. He is very careful about finishing his mental tasks for us. If he has not finished them the time before he comes next time with a slip of paper and says, "This is what I forgot," or "I did not do this," and he is, judging by some of the letters I have or had seen just as punctilious in keeping his appointments with his classes in ornithology, in bird life, getting other fellows to take charge of them a day of two within a few days after the crime was committed.
He appears with us altogether and not unfriendly, but he is extremely critical of other people and decidedly supercilious about his own mental attainments. Very stubborn in his opinions. He is right; the world is wrong. His father says that years ago Leopold has argued repeatedly with him about the nonsense of ethical ideas, about the nonsense of having a conscience and doing as other people do in regard to right and wrong.
As far as I can judge from my numerous interviews, he has extremely little sympathy or feelings or conceptions of gratitude except in some very narrow fields, with regard to his family life in particular, and it is particularly clear that he is melodramatic about the whole situation; he enjoys immensely playing a part.
He himself said to me that it is very much like a drama, and that he thought the best way to play the whole thing out in the same way; he would enjoy it best that way whatever the ending was.
Now the next thing I should like to discuss would be in regard to his emotions or
moves and there judging from his own story of himself particularly, there has been
a tremendous subordination of many normal feelings and emotions to this excessively
developed conception of himself as a superior individual; and he has reacted thus
and is reacting all the time in a most abnormal way in regard to this and particularly
in regard to the whole crime. I am immensely struck -
MR. CROWE: Doctor, just a minute. Are you going to give illustrations of that later on?
THE WITNESS: Yes sir. I am immensely struck too by the fact that notwithstanding his opportunities in life for culture and comfort and ease, that he shows so little disgust at jail surroundings. His main concern seems to be and he himself says is whether or not the reporters say the right thing about him; and one observes a very distinct exhilaration, even as we saw him in jail whenever there was opportunity for him discussing himself or displaying hos own powers.
And again I might state that considering his emotions I saw no evidence whatever of what one might expect to be normal emotional life in jail, or as related to discussions of the crime. The only evidence of it was in this test, whatever that may be worth.
The main thing, of course, we are interested in, is whether there would have been alterations in personality, and my judgment is that there seems to be some steady impairment of his own judgment considering himself particularly, and his relationship to the realities of life, inasmuch as he has been willing to throw away his remarkably fine chances in his environment and as an individual who has such remarkable abilities, throwing away these chances for such petty awards in relation to a most heinous crime.
This conception of himself as a superior being, really superior to laws and social regulations, is very apparently then destructive of his own self interests. He might have been a distinguished scholar; he was already quite an eminent investigator of bird life, having published really very commendable contributions on this field, and an individual with normal judgment would have naturally developed his real superiority and not taken such extraordinary chances of ending his career.
There is another contradiction there that comes out in his life attitude and in his behavior, a contradiction between his notion of his being a superior being and his behavior on such extremely low personal and social levels.
And concerning his inner mental life, which of course is the main concern of the psychiatrist, we find in the first place he has gradually evolved quite delusional ideas concerning himself, and if you will permit me I will go into those a little later.
But in important spheres of life he seems to feel and think and act as if he were a superior being with desires and his own will as gudies to conduct. He says he is a superman on the basis of the philosophy of Nietzsche.
In jail, even though he may be despised, he is Napoleon on St. Helena.
He says that there is one thing that he is afraid that he has not "gotten across to us scientists," and that was his final remark the other day, and that is, that the most important thing, much more important even than preserving his life, is the preservation of his dignity.
Dr. White gave you the account of the ten world riddles that he wants to put into a vault and try to answer after death.
He also wants to write an autobiography if he can, showing how his nineteen years have been packed full of the most interesting and pleasurable and valuable experiences. He wants to make a last speech, if he has to make a last speech, showing that he has had a consistent life career. Ever since he was a little boy he says consistency has been a cart of god to him.
And then we come to the matter of his day dreaming, which again is a very important thing, not because we are not all subject to day dreaming as children and in our later life, but because his ear;y day dreaming was so abnormal in its extent and has been carried along so abnormally and carried over into everyday life.
He began, so he says, with dwelling mentally on the pictures of suffering and causing others to suffer,. which would seem to be a proof of something going wrong already in his emotional life as a little child. There was the crucifixion, which he has dwelt upon, which made, he says, an abnormal appeal to him, and the idea of somebody being tied or he tying someone.
And he went on and told me, at great length, and elaborated freely upon the theme
that he had first developed with Doctors Bowman and Hulbert, namely, the theme of
the king-
As time went on, he belonged to a caste of slaves, a class of slaves; he himself
was bound to his king by a golden chain, which he could easily have broken. He explains
this by saying it was a vestigial remnant; his slave was as really as good as any
kind. At other times he has phantasies about a boy being captured and beaten, and
the king saves his life; or himself as a slave being stolen by gypsies, and brought
up subject to punishment; or a boy who is captured in war time, and beaten, but saved
by a nice young girl; all through there are these continual croppings up of suffering
of causing to suffer in these phantasies. This imaginary life was developed very
early, and had all along this abnormal material, and it kept up even last year. He
has told us about this himself, and his aunt tells me that notwithstanding his tremendous
activity and vigor, she had noted that sometimes during the last year he came in
and went and lay down on the couch, and she supposed he was taking a nap, but these
were the periods when he says he voluntarily went into periods of day dreaming. These
phantasies apparently have had an immense influence upon his life. They have come
up again and again, and have had relationship to his relations to Loeb, and to other
boys earlier. Normal phantasies, of course, are carried out with all of us in our
ambitions, and in our interests in general. This boy carried his abnormal phantasies
vert early over into real life. He distinctly remembers, he tells us, even at twelve
years of age, identifying a camp counsellor as a slave, and putting him into this
position of slave-
The other day in the court room he passed me a little memorandum, and said this was the part of the poem that he had in mind particularly, one of Lawrence Hope's poems that he recited to me, and which I will give you a large excerpt from it you want it. This is what he wrote the other day, in court, and passed on to me:
"Let me dream once that dear delusion
that I am you,
O heart's desire."
| Leopold |
| Loeb |
| Together |
| Together (2) |
| Alibi |
| False Identity |
| Interrogations |
| Confession |
| Confession (2) |
| Grand Jury |